Hi Bellettmongers,

I just wanted to share an experience I had in my ratter last week.

Many experienced Bellett owners would be aware this can happen, but some of us newies (I consider myself a newie coz I've only owned one for about 12 years) may not know about this little issue.

My ratBellett started to gratuitously turn right quite badly. I REALLY wanted to go right.

I pulled into work and, because I'm mechanically inept, ran PR91 and said "whaaaaat's going onnnnn?!?!??!".

He advised me to check the 4 nut-and-bolt combos that hold the lower balljoints onto the lower control arm.

LO AND BEHOLD three were missing (2 missing, 1 cracked in half) from the RH side, causing the issue.

Earlier that week, I'd driven from Adelaide to Strathalbyn to Victor Harbor (over 100ks, mostly in 100kph zones) and the day after that I'd driven to Birdwood (another 100k's round trip - again thru winding hills and 100 zones). I even got lost and went down a dirt road.

If that balljoint had dropped while I was fanging, I might not have been here to tell you about this!

If you haven't put your car thru a full nut and bolt resto, then I would suggest whipping off one of the front wheels, grabbing one of those nuts and bolts and take them to a bolt specialist (eg Coventry Fasteners) and get new ones that match! Or at the least check yours are done up good and proper. If you buy new ones, make sure they're high tensile.

I didn't put this in the tech section coz I wanted it to be fairly visible on the forum so nobody has the same experience as me, or possible worse.

I bought enough bolts to do my three PR's (Wasp doesn't have these bits) and also to do 2lDOHC's car and it cost me $17.00 total, so it's well worthwhile.

Of course, I didn't think to take photos, but if a mechanically inept person such as myself can fix it, then pretty much anyone can. Just remember to replace on bolt at a time (take an old one out, put a new one in) otherwise the spring will push the lower control arm down and you'll be in a world of pain with jacks and all sorts of dramas going on.

Having said that, if you're looking to replace your front springs with rear springs with a Bellett-style lowering job, then that is also a perfect time to do that as you would have had to undo those bolts anyway, I'm pretty sure.

Correct me if I'm wrong; I usually am! (I know my wife says so).


Alrighty then! If anyone drops a ball joint now, I don't want to know about it coz YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!

Thanks to PR91 for diagnosing the problem remotely.

Cheers,

Dave

Over on this side of the ocean, the common metric bolt grades are 8.8, 10.9, and 12.9. Unmarked or regular may be "Low Grade" (below 8.8), or 8.8.

Your suggestion seems to be to use 12.9 grade.


I might only add that stainless steel would be a really bad idea for suspension bolts. Stainless is rated below 8.8.

I think I ended up getting 8.8 because I gave the guy one of the original bolts (stamped with a '9' on the end of the bolt) and said "I need some new ones of these" whereas I should have said, "I need some better ones of these"!!

It took 40 years for the 8.8s to break and the one that broke did so under duress coz two others had fallen out, so 8.8 should be OK, but in retrospect I would have preferred some higher-end items (aka hard as f*ck).

Bugger to hear about that Dave but glad to hear it happened on a drive to work and, not as you said on the run to Victor! That would have been worse than breaking a lower control arm in a Gemini!

Thanks for the bolts you picked up for mine, I'll chuck them in over the weekend

Quick question too, do you remember if the old bolts were castellated? The one's I've just pulled from the '65 are rusted but also castellated so they weren't going anywhere!

Cheers,
R.

There are at least two different number scales for the hardness of bolts. Before we had the current mediocre access to metric bolts we have now, the old timers used to explain that the marking on the head of an Asian bolt was on a different scale from the one used over here. But I don't remember if this was a comparison of the metric bolts used in a product versus metric bolts from a store, or versus SAE bolts. I do remember part of the argument being that one system used one digit and the other system used two digits separated by a decimal point. Also, one system did not go up over the number ten, and the other went to 12.9 (13).

I can not find anything in a quick search that confirms this.

This one compares a single digit and a two digit marking system specifically for metric bolts:
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/ ... rength.htm

This one presents various markings for metric and SAE and different materials:
http://www.geocities.com/dtmcbride/home ... bolts.html

My comment on stainless was based on A2 or A2-70, which is the common shiny bolt, and also 20% below 8.8 in tensile strength. Great for holding on fenders, not great for suspension arms.

Thanks for the heads up Dave, Just did a fang to hallett cove today with both young sons on board. Went to visit mum. Heaps of trucks circling, not a good feeling after your rat experience (although the boys loved it and was a great day). This is truly a grey area on my G161. I've done some work on it as you would be aware, but this might explain even though gettting plenty of grease into joints, a few fangs later the front end becomes hard and starts to creek in like a rusty bed spring in certaun areas. That area is all but very original and has done most of the 75 ....thousand Miles ! I wont be breaking any land speed records in near future, ( those were set by some crazy kamikaze dudes on a test track in japan in the 60's ). I'll make sure to get to Mac'ers on sunday morning, then maybe during the day I would be priveledged for you to show me this problem area as I'm even more mechanicaly defunkt than yourself. LOL .

Cheers, (and anyone else, note this safety issue) B.

Hi Ross, None of the Belletts I have played with have had castellated nuts on the ball joint bolts. When I replaced mine I used ny-lock nuts and loctite and have had not had an issue.

Thanks for the alert Dave. My shop manual shows castellated nuts with split pins so this may have been a predicted possibility. Problem is they get swapped over the years. I'll check all mine when the weather clears. It's like the rack bolts on '66 on cars - put the tie wire in or they're gonna come loose! I remember that "not steering real well" feeling in my first car when I was 17. Problem then was a lower wishbone tearing away from the crossmember - ugly! - and it was only 11 years old.( but it had had a hard life). Always remember, friends, that these cars are in their 40s so we need to keep an eye on these kinds of things - We don't want any tragedies!
Happy Bletting! Matt.

i'll bump, bump, bumpy bump this as, yes, this is a real safety issue that we all should keep an eye on.
for those lucky enuf to have some time off over xmas/new year, this is the perfect time to check these things (if you haven't already).

i gather we all know that we are talking of the 4 bolts that hold the bottom ball joint onto the lower suspension arm, so i'll continue...
personally, i use new allen key type head high tensile cap screws (bolts), new washers and new nylock nuts on all my cars.
the allen type are a 13 grade, much stronger than the original 8.8, as mentiond by JT191 as well.

i've been using these bolts in my race car as well, with the much modified arms and 500 pound springs getting a very hard time (usually from bashing over the ripple stripes on the inside of corners), and they've worked well, so i'd think normal use in a normal Bellett would be a sinch.

as Farmer stated, keep an eye on the tension of the rack mount bolts too, and if your car has the later rubber rack insulators, make sure they aren't perished. the lock wire MUST be there to keep the rack bolts from getting loose on any Bellett rack, but even if you have the rubber insulators and the bolts are tight, the rack might still move if the rubbers are cactus. replacing them will be the only option here.

another area to watch are the bolts that hold the inner end of the lower suspension arms to the crossmember itself. i have had these break as well, either breaking the bolt itself or pulling the thread out of the crossy itself!! if the thread gets pulled.... well it's a case bad luck really and there's no way of preventing it, so a new crossmember is needed, but i also replace these bolts anyway with stronger grade ones as well as they do break, so i figure it's still one less problem that's avoided.

cheers.

Does anyone know where to find a conversion chart for the single digit or non decimal bolt strength rating system used in Japan for metric bolts?

Last weekend was a rather strenuous two days of racing an FF car, and I am finding a lot of stuff loose that I want to replace with new and longer bolts which will allow me to use lock washers where there weren't lock washers originally.
At the same time, I am going through catalogs trying to find an appropriate 16 mm bolt for the Bellett front lower control arm attachment assembly.

The 80's and 90's Isuzu cars come with bolts marked with a single digit or non decimal system. It is not the same as the 8.8, 10.9, 12.9 system. These bolts are marked with cursive style numbers, 4, 6, 9, etc.

I swear I found a conversion chart many years ago, but all I am finding now is the modern metric compared to the SAE ratings...

Hey JT - have you tried Locktight? There are many different grades of adhesion you can buy - I swear by and rely on it for my chopper.

My usual problem is nuts and bolts rusting together, especially around the lower suspension. I use antiseize on just about everything. Then again, nothing came with antiseize on it either...

Saturday's event was a little more stress on the car than usual. We don't have gymkhana over here, and they decided to have one as an excuse to attract drift drivers into formal racing events. It was 8 270-450 degree turns, no slalom, nothing but turn on the cone. It ended up drift vs. grip. And it became very casual allowing as many runs as anyone wanted to take. I probably got an hour seat time. A lot of turbocharged Sylvia drivers trying to figure out why they were 4+ seconds slower than the non-turbo FWD car. And I don't have an emergency brake!
While franticly going from left to right steering lock and back again, I got my arms tangled in the spokes of the steering wheel and destroyed the turn signal switch (now everyone thinks I'm talking on the phone while I drive because I can't use the blinkers). The seat came unbolted and I think the slider rails are shot. The coilover bottom bolts ended up finger tight on the spindles. And one lower ball joint came loose. Never happened before, ever.
I also probably lost time at Sunday's regular event from driving a car with loose suspension components. I should have known to check...

I'm going to see if I can get some bolt markings information from the Japanese.

OK, I found a chart, in the general information section of the shop manuals. The chart is actually for torque specifications listing the marking, diameter, thread pitch, and telling what the acceptable range of torque should be, in the event you find a bolt that is not shown in the reassembly or torque specification diagrams in the section covering what you are working on.

1984-1989:

4 = 4T, Low Carbon Steel

7 = 7T, High Carbon Steel

9 = 9T, Alloy Steel (The number nine has a straight line for the back/lower part, so that it is not confused with a number six).

1990-1993:

4 or No Mark = Class 4.4

8 or Long Slash From Hex Point And Dot = Class 8.8 Refined

8 Dot or Short Slash From Hex Point And Dot = Class 8.8 Non-Refined

9 or Slash From Hex Flat Side And Dot = Class 9.8 (Again, the number nine has the straight back).


I know I have seen bolts marked with the number six underlined to show it is a six and not a nine. That one is not listed anywhere I have found yet.

And, I will need to special order longer bolts for my coilover to spindle connection on the FF car, they are supposed to be 9.8 and the only thing available was 8.8...

I guess the good news is that 10.9 is higher strength than anything on the 85-93 cars anyway, and 12.9 would be overkill for anything other than reinforcing for racing.

Upper ball joint bolts have a number 7 printed on the head.
M8x1.25x29 full thread

Lower ball joint bolts have a number 9 printed on the head.
M8x1.25x36 partial thread

I have reason to believe these are the original bolts, because beneath the layers of dirt and grime, they have been covered in yellow paint. This appears to have been done on the assembly line as a safety/inspection/anti-tamper step so that anyone servicing the vehicle could tell if they had been removed.

This number system IS NOT the SAE grade system, and it is still unclear how the old Japanese bolt rating system converts to the modern ASTM decimal system (8.8, 10.9, 12.9). The only thing that is apparent right now is that 8.8 bolts are not strong enough for the lower ball joint bolts.

Hmm. Might get some more bolts then.