I see on old posts that this has been thrashed to death and maybe this does not help much as there's no actual picture of the chassis number, but this ad says the Chassis number is "PR91W-421 etc"

http://exchange.goo-net.com/usedcars/IS ... index.html

US$28,360 for those interested. Landed here would be about $37,000

Nice car though.

Glenn

listed as PR91W but notice no photo of the chassis number area???

plenty of other photos but. me thinks a little suspicious indeed


OZ

I think the discussion got to the point that one side claimed the serial number stamped into the cowl or firewall of the vehicle had an added digit to specify specific special models (W for GTR, S for Sport Sedan[?]), and the other side disagreed pointing out that the manufacturer did not add specific equipment identification digits to the serial number until 20 years later, and that specified only a change in engine displacement or chassis/drivetrain layout.

And no one had a photo of a serial number stamped into the car with the additional identification digits. The only photo found in an auction listing showed no W in the number stamped in the cowl/firewall while the written description had the W included in the chassis number.

The only input from a Japanese owner was that the number stamped in the car did not contain an extra identification digit, and the vehicle can not be identified as one or the other model by the number stamped into the car. But that the Japanese people know the structure and/or equipment features to look for up under the vehicle which are identifiable between the two models.

It is not exactly suspicious that these cars come up for auction or sale in Japan without a photo of the serial number stamped into the sheet metal. These are the same people who pixilate license plates and faces in photos to protect privacy. The serial number of a car seems to fit into the same category of protected information. And if the Japanese people have resolved that this is not an identifying feature of a GTR, then it is not an issue and there is no reason to show a photo of the number printed into the car.

I am probably not alone in looking back at past opportunities of walking through a field of the cars when it would have been easy to examine (and photograph) a dozen or more. Had only we known that this would become a continued unanswered question in the future.

surely the price difference alone of all the cars about recently between a GT"-R" and a GT-R should tell us all something.

what i'm eluding to is that the cars that are disputed are advertised "normal" GT money, and then this one is $28,000....
now call me silly, but I'm sure the Japanese would know why there's a difference of almost $20k between the 2....

and when one of the local guys here was in Japan in late 2008, he visited Eagle.
yes, we all know the stories about there cars, but....
a GT-R-ised GT was about the same as a normal GT. about $10,000.
there were 2 real GT-R's there too. one was over $30,000, and there also was the one and only LHD built GT-R that was supposed to be sent to Europe but never went....
that was $53,000.

also, we of the west know just how hard it is to just get parts for our cars out of Japan....
so do u really think the same people are going to let a genuine, rare and very sort after car off their shores too...?

just my 2c's

PR91, it sounds like there is a shared group experience or story that I am not in on. I don't know anything about the story of the guy who visited Eagle in late 2008. I also do not know anything about the stories that you say everyone has heard about Eagle's cars.

The only things I know about Eagle would be:
They date back to the ISCC days.
They ask a premium price for what they sell.
They seem to have an attitude that their offering price is the price they are going to sell at, and they can wait as long as it takes for the market to come around to their selling price.
They are the only Isuzu specific shop left, while the other former big names have turned to Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, and even mini van dress up kits, as their primary income source.

The prices of the cars do appear to be erratic.
But the cars are gaining in value. A bad thing for those wanting to buy. A good thing for those wanting to sell. But even if the cost of the hobby is increasing, it's good to know that what we are doing is becoming more valuable and not less. Especially since many people claim that spending money on other cars in the lineage makes as much sense as lighting the money on fire and watching it burn and turn to ash in front of your eyes.

But then people right here are throwing hundreds of dollars at used fog lights, so it's no surprise that cars and parts are increasing in price.

The LHD GT-R price would be based on the fact that it is the only LHD GT in Japan and one of maybe two or three LHD GT-R cars ever made. It looks like it's in good shape. And apparently runs well enough that they have been posting videos of it taking runs on mountain roads for the last two or three years.

The desirability of the GT-R over the GT is missing me. Even on a historical level, because the GT won more races than the GT-R.
But the whole special edition model thing in general misses me. For almost any example, you can take the base model car and build a faster car than the special edition car. And with a 40 year old car, that everyone seems to agree is impossible to restore to original for lack of parts, and requires some basic upgrades to improve safety, it would be hard not to improve the performance level just putting it back into working condition to be driven on the road.
And what is the difference between the GT and GT-R anyway? Engine, brake booster (front brakes only), and some blacked out chrome on the backs of the mirrors and base of the antenna. Any other differences are secrets kept by the Japanese.

I am not seeing the Japanese refusing to sell expensive or desirable things for export. I have seen that the Japanese want the price they ask, and they get turned off very fast by the western down-to-brass-tacks, directly-to-the-point manner. You can get away with playing the smiling foreigner who does not know the customs, but you can not get away with playing the rude foreigner who wants to hammer the locals into submission.
Eagle/Isuzu Sport do not participate in the export agent program on the website that they list cars on, but that may be because they do not want to bother with the paperwork. As a side example, I have attempted to mail order parts from salvage yards in Canada, and found many yards with long lists of parts I am trying to buy, refuse to ship across the border. I am doubting they want to keep those parts up in the snow covered north for sentimental reasons. Probably due to paperwork and possible credit card fraud risks.

Maybe it is because I am not shopping for another car, but the asking prices of actual running cars bothers me much less than the prices being asked for non-running basket cases that would cost tens of thousands of dollars to be put back onto the road.

[quote="JT191"]PR91, it sounds like there is a shared group experience or story that I am not in on. I don't know anything about the story of the guy who visited Eagle in late 2008. I also do not know anything about the stories that you say everyone has heard about Eagle's cars.

I don't know the story either !


glenn

It sounds like this story is getting out of control I'm the guy who was at Isuzu sport in 2008 from what I was seeing and have the photos to prove it (will post at a later date ) there machanics were working around the clock rebuilding late Gts into Gt lock alikes all the type R s on the sales lot except for three did not look real to me mock ups because when you looked under the bonnet they were fitted with single over head cam motors they were rebuilding one in the workshop which also did not look correct as it was being fitted with an 1800 twin cam and just befor I left there was a truck dropping off a freshly painted rolling shell ready to be fitted out and the show room out the front was full of parts that made me drule The left hand drive car was there and was perfect in every way almost to nice to drive there was a very very rusty gtr there that needed a lot of work but it was not for sale looks like it had been sitting in 12 inches of water for a very long time . But big deal these cars are going back on the road and they are there for us to buy and with our dollar being so high nows the time to buy. I was more interested in a 1600 fast back for $4500 all there and would not have needed much for a road worthy and I was investigating bringing it home but a second baby on the way stopped that and we have been mocking up cars he for over 30 years theres more falcon Gts and xu1 toranas on the road than they ever made.

Peter.

Hi Peter, thanks for the info.

I would be happy to have a look a like myself. Of course not at a huge premium though, approaching a 'real' GTR price. Assuming I could actually tell the difference !

glenn

have added photos of isuzu sport in random bellett picks Peter.

I think that's the core of the story.
Was every car offered presented as a genuine GT-R? Or were some offered as and priced as replicas?
Was every car being worked on owned by the shop or were some/all being serviced/modified for customers at the direction of the customers?
If you owned a genuine GT-R and decided you wanted to put a larger engine into it, would the next logical larger option be a 1.8 liter DOHC?

The accusation is that Eagle/Isuzu Sport brings in only GT shells and sells only fraudulently built GT-R cars.
Peter's story provides enough to make a buyer ask LOTS of questions. But without a conversation with a mechanic or two with some euphemistic phrase stating "Yeah, we built more GT-R's here than they ever did in Fujisawa", it still leaves us without solid evidence to prove the rumor.

The first thing to point out that without knowing what those subtle differences the Japanese know when identifying a GT-R, it would be a very bad investment to spend top dollar for a collectible car as an investment.

It would be a good idea to dig up the production list by serial number and option (engine).

Worst case scenario: Every GT-R in existence is a fake and was converted from a GT.
Now, compare the price of restoring a basket case to like new original condition (not a GT-R replica) (thousands in parts and hundreds of man hours), versus the price being asked for what is being presented as a genuine GT-R (that we do not know how to positively identify).
Not much difference between the cost of the two.

If it weren't a long enough name already, Eagle Sayama / Isuzu Sports is now operating under another new name: Tokyo-GT Club:
http://www.tokyo-gtclub.com/

Probably to reflect their wider range of inventory. It was a little odd they were showcasing a Toyota 2000GT under the Isuzu Sports name. This probably resolves that wrinkle, and now they are offering Skyline, Fairlady, and many other non-Isuzu cars.

To convert a GT to a GTR that's a passable replica, then one must have a 1600 DOHC engine.. they can't be thick on the ground?

glenn

For reference, I have moved this to General Bellett Chat.

"Bellett.net and the Forums" is specifically for feedback, suggestions and discussion relating to the forum itself, rather than Belletts in general.

No sweat.

Cheers,

Dave