This is what it currently is:

"The Isuzu Bellett (1963 to 1973):

The Bellett was apparently named so terribly in order to represent a smaller Bellel, the similarly poorly named predecessor. The Bellett came in 2 door coupe, 2 door fastback, 2 door wagon (express), 4 door sedan, 2 door pickup truck (wasp) and full out race car (R6) in either coupe or spider form.

No fewer than 8 engines ranging from OHV to DOHC and even Diesel were offered over the 10 year production span. All Belletts had independent front and rear suspension and to the best of my knowledge disc brakes made it to at least the front end.

GT:

By beating the Prince Skyline S54 to market by a month(?) in the summer of 1964, the Bellett can claim being the first Japanese car to get the GT designation. Both Prince and Isuzu GTs eventually ended up with I6 and I4 SOHC engines respectively.

GT-R:

The GT-R, more specifically GT Type-R (for "racing"), was a racing version of the GT, also available to individual customers. First presented in September 1969, the GT-R featured a 1.6 L DOHC engine from the 117 Coupe, power brakes and numerous other modifications. It was visually different from other Belletts primarily by a specific paint scheme, which included a completely black hood. The GT-R achieved many successes in racing, and has gained its own fan community. Only about 1,400 GT-Rs were manufactured.

Though the GT-R was one of the first cars to be called "GT-R", the Nissan Skyline GT-R was in fact earlier, with the PGC10 GT-R being released six months beforehand, in March 1969. The Holden Torana GTR was released in October 1969. However, there was a Bridgestone GTR motorbike which predates all of these. It is also worth noting that Isuzu used the Type-R designation long before Honda adopted it.


Wheelbase: 2352 mm 92.59 in
Track front: 1219 mm 47.99 in
Track rear: 1214 mm 47.79 in
Length: 4006 mm 157.71 in
Width: 1496 mm 58.89 in
Curb weight: 939 kg 2070.13 lb

Isuzu 117 (1968-1981):

This high speed tourer was styled by Giorgetto Giugiaro (Carrozzeria Ghia). It was the first Japanese car with a DOHC engine, the first with electronic fuel injection and also the world's first sports car with a diesel engine."

Anyone have any more information, is anything wrong on it?

JT191, I'm talking to you

Cheers,

Andrew

Is this some sort of rumor-pedia type listing that can be edited by anyone capable of operating a computer regardless of how much or little they know about the topic, or is this something that you, yourself, has put up on a web page?

The Bellel was not a predecessor to the Bellett, it was a different model within the range, serving a different market segment. Compact vs. mid sized.

The fastback was a subset of the GT.

I don't know if non-GT/GTR models were offered originally with front disks, or if this was only a dealer upgrade.

I don't know if the Prince was ever offered as a GT, or if the GT name came to be used for the Skyline only after Nissan took over.

"The first GTR" is a problem. First conceived, named, built, or offered for sale to the public. The fine print determines that claim. The GTX was the GT with the DOHC engine as named during testing, and was on track and winning races in September of 1968. This exact combination of parts became the GTR. It is easy to picture Asaoka or Yonemura rolling out of the driver's seat after a few laps, looking at the ISCC team manager, and proclaiming "You guys have to put this car out on the street, it kills everything else on wheels". And then the team manager asking "What should we call it?". And a company man chiming in "Why, GTR of course!".
But it becomes very apparent that the success of the Bellett GTX between September 1968 and March 1969 was the tipping point that forced Nissan's hand to put a DOHC engine into the Skyline. At what point Nissan co-opted the GTR name from the planned Bellett GTR would be open to speculation.

Also, much of Nissan's story appears to be exaggerated. The Bellett GT was doing quite well at beating the Skyline GT and GTB cars. Everyone anteed up with DOHC engines, and the Nissan history claims the Skyline GTR went undefeated. That isn't true. The Bellett GTR continued winning. The Nissan history claims something like 53 victories. No one has published a list of these races, and without counting one marque races, this number is not possible.

History may be written by the winners, but rumor-pedia is a codification of the half truths inaccurate information that is widely accepted by the ignorant masses.

Overall, there is a big difference between what we know is fact, what we believe to be true, and what we know is untrue. That middle one we are working out here, but what we sort now is going to be different from what we have sorted out years from now. Between now and then, anything published on the internet gets quoted by everyone, until we find we are quoting it ourselves while we have already worked past the details and on to a new topic.

And even with the facts we know, unless you are willing to guard a wiki page with a stick and beat back everyone who wants to change the information, because they are a fan of another car, because they want to push their own half truth, or because they just want to play a prank, then someone is always going to be there to change what you have written.

JT. Hudson was asking for your help to write an alternative so that it can be posted on Facebook.

The Facebook entry he's pulled above is hilariously and spectacularly wrong as we can all see. It looks to be written by a Datsun/Nissan fanboy as opposed to an Isuzu enthusiast.

I know anyone can change this stuff but we have to atleast try to keep it up to date and not just give in straight away because it might be changed at some point in the future. If the Nissan page was changed to say the 'Prince Skyline was rubbish' half of the car enthusiasts on the internet would jump in there and change it but by your rational because it can be changed by anyone we should just leave incorrect Bellett information.

This forum is here to ensure that correct (as best we know) information is posted about the Bellett on the internet or if not correct then it is open to debate here.

Hudson, thanks for pointing out the above rubbish from Facebook. I personally don't use Facebook but I know a couple of other moderators do and I'm sure they'll see this and pull something together.

Cheers for the heads up!
R

Thanks for the clarification about Facebook. All I knew about Facebook/Myspace was that they are the best place for a crowd to stand below a building and yell "Jump!" at a suicidal teenager standing out on a ledge.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312524,00.html

I do not think that fighting over wiki or rumor information sources is a productive use of time. Because we are grossly outnumbered by the Nissan fanboys, who will continually go back and change any correction of the Isuzu information every time it is corrected to show any success by the Bellett.

A more productive strategy would be to author private web pages with the accurate information. These are what are used as citations to back up the information on those wiki websites.
We should also discourage reliance on wiki sources as the end all and be all of researching a topic until they either incorporate editing by an authority or present accurate information for more than the five minutes until someone changes it to match their own misinformation or agenda.

I take full responsibility for posting that on Facebook.. the information came from Wikipedia a year or so ago.

By all means correct it boys!

That's why I posted it.

Cheers

Sorry hudson! Not trying to give you shit here! (I've got a 240Z in the garage as well so don't be too offended by Nissan/Datsun fanboy comments )

As for updating the entry. I think we can probably get JT, PR91 and Dave together (and anyone else who wants to post with good verifiable information ofcourse!) to get a fairly decent history and info page for Facebook/Myspace/Wiki. One of the stated aims of this site is to provide an accurate history of the Isuzu Bellett (in English!) for all to enjoy. Part of this is not just keeping this site up to date but helping to update other public domain sites where we can...

Wiki(s) are a pain in that anything can be posted but we do get a few hits from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_Bellett (check out the URL's at the bottom ) so it can't be all bad!

Anyway, if you guys want to correct the above, by all means do it! I know A history of the Bellett, but I tend to think it's not THE history. Get the Bellett word out there in it's most correct form guys! The humble Bellett does have quite an interesting history after all and has a few firsts under it's belt. There's another thread all to itself!

Cheers,
Ross

Well, I have a few things to say.. maybe some facts even

I'm all for correcting the record as much as posisble. I was lead to believe that the cars were 'somewhat' successful race cars, yadda yadda.

At any rate, while I'm all for correcting the English language record as much as posisble, I think it's a bit of a moot point. The best comparison I can think of at the moment is Beta and VHS.. sure Beta was the better format, but VHS won the marketing and market share battle.

For instance, I should say that I like Isuzu Belletts inspite of their name. The name just doesn't translate into English markets anywhere near as 'cooly' as skyline or even hako suka. Let's be honest.

I don't doubt JT that there is a lot of trumped up claims and there was a carefully orchestrated racing program at Nissan/Datsun. Unfortunately that's what managing a brand is all about.

I've heard tell that Lancia used to have their Betas stop for long periods of time in rallies if they were going to finish ahead of the Stratos contigent (obviously as long as no other makes would place higher). Unfortunately, that's savvy brand management. After all, the Stratos was one of, if not the first, purpose built rally car.

Well, I guess my point is I think Belletts and I guess the 117 are wicked cool cars, I don't need 14 year olds on the internet to think so aswell to feel good in my belief.

Cheers,

Andrew

Can we drop the harrassment of the Datsun/Renault brigade. They have feelings you know and they might go on face book and then jump of a tall buliding. then we will have Fox News blaming us Isuzuphiles.

I would think that my earlier post might point out a few of the more glaring issues with the information.

You might work in a less negative explanation of the name, like the play on words between the company name and bells, that bells are considered lucky in Japanese culture, the Bellel was their first independent design, a mid sized car, and the Bellett was their second, a smaller sized car.

I think the identifying aspects of the GTR might be:
Smaller end bumpers on the front with the driving lights and license plate in the middle.
Hood vents.
Trunk hinges painted body color instead of chrome.
GTR badges.
The blacked out hood paint scheme may have been optional, but was overly popular, I have seen some GTRs that were solid color. But that blacked out paint job was: hood and overlapping onto the top of the front fenders (to cut out glare), tailgate around the tail lamps, and a stripe graphic down the side of the car.

I do not know about the power brakes. I have not seen a vacuum booster. But they definitely had a two channel master cylinder, which I am anxious to upgrade to from the single channel master cylinder.

Predecessor to the Bellett: Hillman Imp (1957?).
(Corrected 8Feb09 21:00 from Minx; no year)

I don't think Isuzu had anything at all to do with the Imp. I also don't see any similarity between the two.



JT: Yeah.. the information is there now. I just was hoping someone would change it for me! Just kidding.

Cheers,

Andrew

IZU069 might have meant Minx.

http://www.imps4ever.info/


The rear engine would have lead to some different and interesting things... Like a 1970's Pontiac Fiero style car. (Fiero shares many Isuzu parts).

But was the Minx a predecessor to the Bellel, or to the Bellett?
The Bellel came first and production overlapped with the Minx. The Minx ceases just before the Bellett begins, but the mechanicals and appearance don't seem to share much if any relationship.
The model numbers do not reveal a direct relationship, because the Minx was PH, the Bellel was PA, and the Bellett was PR.
It may be a question of dimensions and market segment, and that the Bellett was more of a replacement, than a successor. Something like "We used to make this car, and now make this other car, they serve the same purpose, but there is no direct lineage between the two.

The hillman minx is mentioned in a lot of places around the net as being a predecessor. There is a nice short summary of where isuzu came from here:

http://www.uniquecarsandparts.com.au/car_info_isuzu.htm



So it would make sense that the Bellel/Bellett were their own design, model numbering etc, but would also make sense that they would have based the design on what they were building previously, eg the minx, and the timeline fits.

Weird side note. The Bellett Oil filter also fits the Morris 1100, another Rootes group car of the same era. Would be surprised if mechanically there were similarities elsewhere too.

Morris isn't Rootes Group... it's BMC (and therefore dead... uh... like Rootes Group is).

BMC was Morris, Austin, Leyland, MG, Riley, Wolseley, Vanden Plas, Austin Healey, Triumph, Jaguar, Rover and probably a few others.

Rootes Group was Hillman, Sunbeam, Singer, Simca (France), Commer, European Chrysler vehicles and ended their days building Peugeots after they were bought out (part from memory, part from Wiki).

I think we need PR91 to put what info he has about Belletts in Australia in the Belletts In Australia section as a minimum... and work on the rest of the world after that, coz he has come concrete facts about the cars that have been preserved from the era... but we might wait until things have settled down in that area of the country before harassing him too much.

A lot of sources say "The vehicle was the successor for that vehicle", mostly because they assume that everything is an evolution of what came before it, and that there is no other way that things can occur. This is their default template for seeing and understanding things, and this is how they refer to time lines and they never go any deeper into more complicated relationships.

Now, Nissan/Datsun was building Austin 7 cars, either under license or not under license. Then they stopped making Austin 7 cars and came out with the Datsun Phaeton and Datsun 15. According to this template, the Datsun Phaeton and Datsun 15 are the successors to the Austin 7.

How about more recent history: Isuzu made the Trooper. Isuzu stopped making the Trooper, and started selling Ascenders. Is the Ascender the successor to the Trooper?

The word successor implies that one thing descended from another, and is related. When a model goes over a major redesign, like switching from rear wheel drive to front wheel drive, this relationship might be clarified as "successor in name alone". But if the vehicles do not share the name, or any mechanical relationship, it seems more accurate to say "was replaced by".

I don't know enough about the Hilman Minx to say this should be stated one way or the other. But from what little I do know, I am leaning toward the "replaced by" relationship. Sure, they learn things like how to attach one piece of metal to another or how to put hardware together. But is there any similarity in the layout?
Does the Minx have a swing axle rear suspension, or something that would logically be one step before the evolution into a swing axle rear suspension?
It would be hard to make an argument that the exterior styling of the Minx was evolved into the Bellett.

From the comments of other people who are car enthusiasts but do not know anything about Isuzu cars, the Bellett shares more mechanical similarities with the Triumph Spitfire than anything else. The normal comment used to describe the car is "It's like someone took a four seat coupe body and put it on top of a Spitfire...". Perhaps the designers in Japan looked very carefully at the earliest Spitfire, or even the Triumph Herald, and used it for inspiration for the mechanicals of the Bellett.
The Bellett makes every appearance of being a drastic design departure from anything else the company previously built.

The point would be that we need to sort out details like this and make sure we are specific, before just pigeon holing things into everyone else's template, because those things imply relationships that are not accurate to the history.

I guess it is a thing of english.

dictionary.com (first link) defines successor as "a person or thing that succeeds or follows.". I guess technically it does not mean "shares design from" but people could read in to it that way. Probably the successor could be left out, or it could be worded or noted that the cars share nothing or little in design.

Does anyone have the time to draft something up?

Down a little further on that same page, there are a few more details that give more implied meaning:
"one who takes the place which another has left, and sustains the like part or character"
"one that follows : one that succeeds another (as in a position, title, office, or estate)"

With the transition from Bellett to Gemini, the first years of Gemini were called "Gemini Bellett". It gives a straight forward indication that this thing is replacing that thing.
Someone tell me the dimensions, characteristics, driving feel, etc. for the Minx, as compared to the Bellett.
It could go either way, I'm hoping for some discussion, not trying to make a case. Somebody said they did a bunch of research on Minx replacement parts, please say how the cars are similar or different.

There is nothing to compare between the two in my opinion, one is decidedly British, the other decidedly Japanese.

I know that seems patently obvious, but even when the japanese were basically copying something outright, they still put there own spin on it. If I was going to compare the bellett to another car, I would be more inclined to say it's a slightly more pedestrian Alfa Romeo (because the powerplants weren't all DOHC, and well not Italian).

There's nothing special about a Minx.