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rodeo and gemini (isuzu) transmission info
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antus
Site Admin
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:17 am
Posts: 208
Location: Adelaide
Car(s): Gemini TX Coupe G200W Delco EFI, Gemini TX sedan (SR20DET, track car), Dato 1200 Ute, Subaru Blitzen Wagon (4th gen)
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 Rodeobob on ozgemini.com wrote: I got asked, so i thought i would make a thread in here about gearboxes etc so i dont get asked again. If i do, i can say tut tut you didnt search or look around.
Tonight i will do the short.
Ive updated some clutch data.
MSG
Everything except the 4ZE1 had an MSG type gearbox. 4ZB1-4ZD1 and G161Z-G200Z. (also C190 and C223 and G180W and G200W but with the starter motor on the opposite side).
Early had the coarse spline. Gemini and Rodeo.
Later had the Fine (1.8L 4ZB1 Shuttle too).
Vehicles fitted with the 4ZC1 and 4ZD1 had a large output shaft. (same as Trimatic etc.)
Clutch Activation
Cable clutch in the Gemini and Rodeo and hydraulic in the Shuttle and Piazza. There is two different provisions in the bellhousing for the different types of clutch actuation in most MSG boxes, there is a possiblitiy that you may have to swap over the front bearing carrier plate to enable the use of a clable clutch.
MUA
The Gearbox behind the 4ZE1 is called the MUA box. Its bigger and beefier (in the middle) but with the same bellhousing and overall length. It has the large output shaft the same as above.
Clutch Activation
Hydraulic clutch. This box was only in the 2WD (there was a 4x4 version) Rodeo. Hence it only needed a hydraulic clutch because thats what they had. Theres only provision for a hydraulic clutch in the bellhousing.
Clutch plates
(From Shuttle and Rodeo Factory manuals)
For the relavant diameter reguardless of motor the clutches will interchange.
Engine.....Size........Area..........Clamping force.
G161Z - 200mm A-181cm2......330kg Flat
G180Z
C190
G200Z - 215mm A-186cm2......350kg Flat
4ZB1 ....................................380kg
4ZC1 (Carby)........................380kg
4ZD1....................................486kg
C223....................................330/380kg
C223-T.................................486kg
4ZC1-T - 225mm A-221cm2....550kg Stepped flywheel
4JA1 (2.5L n/a Diesel)...........550kg Im unsure as to if this is a stepped flywheel.
4ZE1 - 240mm ?????............560kg Flat
4JB1-T (2.8L) -240mm.............640kg Im unsure as to if this is a stepped flywheel.
All clutches use the same centre drive spline on the clutch plate.
4Z motor have 8 bolts hold the flywheel on and the flywheels will inter-change to other 4Z motors.
G-series motors have 6 bolts hold the flywheel on and the flywheels will interchange to other G-series motors.
To convert the E1 MUA box to cable clutch.
You either need to convert the car to hydraulic mastercylinder and run a hose.
Or you need to make a mounting plate for inside the bellhousing to hold the piviot ball to make the cable fork work. If you do this you will need the engine to gearbox brace off a 4Z motor pre E1, this holds the gearbox end of the cable. They were all the same if my memory is right. Stick your nose under a Shuttle. If not a D1 Jackaroo/Rodeo is the same.
Or you could find a longer (clutch) cable from something else and run it in from the back of the car. That will mean the cable pulls the right way on the hydraulic fork. All you would need to do would be make some sort of holder to hold the cable to the side of the gearbox and some way of attaching the cable to the clutch fork.
Or you could make up a piviot that bolts to the side of the box that converts the cables pull into a push.
Its your conversion be creative and Good luck with it.
If youve got pictures post em up. Ive lost all my pics.
Cheers, Bob. Rodeobob on ozgemini.com wrote: Shifters
The MSG gearbox has a shifter mounting face that slopes toward the rear of the box.
The MUA gearbox has a shifter mounting face that it parallel to the main shaft in the gearbox.
The shifters are not interchangeable without modifications.
Heres a pic of an MUA box next to an MSG box: Attachment:
muavsmsgpic.jpg [ 270.83 KiB | Viewed 32372 times ]
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| Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:27 am |
  
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JT191
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 543
Location: 12,450 miles away from the Big Warehouse in Melbourne
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Given this is being discussed on a Bellett page, am I to gather that there is a way to put a Piazza five speed gear box into a Bellett? And that I might be able to travel at highway speed without the engine wound out at three quarters of maximum RPM?
The output spline pattern and length is different between G200Z SOHC Piazza and the five speed boxes with the starter on the wrong/DOHC side. But the internals are apparently interchangeable, making for $500 for a NZ transmission, $500 for air freight, only to dump the guts into a bucket and use the case with the SOHC guts.
Supposedly, one of the pickups has the starter on the wrong side. But none seemed to have a five speed before switching to GM engines.
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| Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:22 pm |
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antus
Site Admin
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:17 am
Posts: 208
Location: Adelaide
Car(s): Gemini TX Coupe G200W Delco EFI, Gemini TX sedan (SR20DET, track car), Dato 1200 Ute, Subaru Blitzen Wagon (4th gen)
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Yes. Brett talked me through the details at nationals and George (v6wasp) has too. Im always a little sketchy on the details, but i understand the gemini/piazza which would be MSG 5 speed box guts will fit in to a TF rodeo diesel bellhousing, and on to a bellett. The petrol rodeo diesel box has the starter on the wrong side, but the diesel has the starter on the correct side. So a gemini 5 speed + rodeo diesel is compatible with a bellett or g series twincam.
All the parts are there if you have both transmissions. The bellett uses the other set of mounting holes, so you need to make up an 80mm spacer, and I think you may need to swap the yoke? depending on the spline of the box you've got.
I dont have any pics of the diesel box and am still looking for more info about it.
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| Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:13 pm |
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JT191
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 543
Location: 12,450 miles away from the Big Warehouse in Melbourne
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OK, now tell me what an Australian Rodeo would be called in the rest of the world. We got the LUV and Pup pickup trucks, and Trooper, Rodeo, Amigo, Axiom, and Vehicross SUVs. I think your Rodeo was a pickup truck.
I am not sure what Diesels we got, but I think those were four speed. Would a four speed front half of the transmission case bolt to and have the correct internal casting to accept and match a five speed rear half transmission case?
Possibly a I-Mark five speed with a front half of the transmission case from an early diesel pickup?
And am I guessing correctly that the Bellett is going to have the coarse spline on the propeller shaft?
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| Thu Nov 27, 2008 9:46 pm |
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antus
Site Admin
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:17 am
Posts: 208
Location: Adelaide
Car(s): Gemini TX Coupe G200W Delco EFI, Gemini TX sedan (SR20DET, track car), Dato 1200 Ute, Subaru Blitzen Wagon (4th gen)
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We'll need someone more knowledgeable about the topic to give more information. I can point you to the wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Rodeowhich says the KB model is an: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isuzu_TFWhich between the two makes me think were talking some 80s/90s models of: Chevrolet LUV Chevrolet T-series - El Dababah Holden Rodeo Honda Tourmaster Isuzu Fuego Isuzu KB Isuzu Pup Opel Campo Vauxhall Brava But the diesel is a V6, so need some clarification if thats the one or not. Anyone know? If you have any at a local wreckers could take a look and see if you can find a diesel with the a trans that looks like the smaller one above but with the starter on the other side? Otherwise PR91 Brett or V6Wasp George could probably fill in the gaps.
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| Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:11 pm |
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JT191
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 543
Location: 12,450 miles away from the Big Warehouse in Melbourne
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It appears that I should be looking for a Chevy Luv or Isuzu Pup with a diesel engine. I am seriously doubting that the same transmission was used all the way through 1996, and I know they converted over to GM engines prior to 1996, so maybe 1985-1989 is the cutoff date. I have never heard of a V6 diesel in any of these pickups. I see some 2.2 diesel parts available, but the smallest diesel in the "Rumor-pedia" entry is like 2.8 liter. This should illustrate just how questionable a lot of the information is on that website, especially the Isuzu information, which is mostly incorrect and based on whatever rumor some group of high school children want the rest of the world to believe about their riced up storm cars.
I am going to be looking at almost the same issue with finding a diesel pickup transmission to look at as I am of finding all those early Nissan Skyline brake disks and calipers to swap. There are no Skylines in salvage yards on this continent, because they still haven't started delivering them, the R35 is the first to arrive. Diesel LUVs and Pups are a rarity, and after the price spike in gasoline, every hoosier and redneck has horded all the diesel junkers with the idea of converting them over to run on french fry oil. Four door, RWD diesel I-Marks are going for over $4,000 US. I've run multiple salvage yard searches and can not find any here or in Canada.
To find one within the country and pay freight would be $100-200+$100 shipping. It might be easier to air freight a Gemini ZZ transmission from Japan, but that would cost $500+$500 shipping.
I need to get my hands on some pickup shop manuals...
One detail about the clutch information: The flywheel is not the same between the G200Z and the 4ZC1/4ZD1 engines (or the G200W engine). The clutches and flywheels may be interchangeable as a set, but they are not interchangeable as individual pieces.
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| Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:30 pm |
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JT191
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 543
Location: 12,450 miles away from the Big Warehouse in Melbourne
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OK, this might be a better option: If I can determine what the spline pattern is needed for the Bellett, then determine what years of gasoline I-Mark use the same spline pattern and buy one from a salvage yard, and buy a new front half transmission case with bellhousing for a diesel transmission from the dealership to adapt the used I-Mark transmission to the engine with the starter on the wrong side.
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| Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:51 pm |
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bellett65
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 7:14 am
Posts: 157
Location: Cranbourne Victoria
Car(s): Isuzu DMax LSU, Isuzu MUX, 1979 117 Coupe.
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JT191 wrote: OK, this might be a better option: If I can determine what the spline pattern is needed for the Bellett, then determine what years of gasoline I-Mark use the same spline pattern and buy one from a salvage yard, and buy a new front half transmission case with bellhousing for a diesel transmission from the dealership to adapt the used I-Mark transmission to the engine with the starter on the wrong side. The Bellett clutch is 200mm X 1" X 10 (size x spline OD x No. of Teeth) My ZZR setup (in Bellett) is 215mm X 25.5mm X 24 Just as an aside the Bellett and diesel starters are on the correct side 
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| Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:44 am |
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IZU069
Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:09 am
Posts: 43
Car(s): BellettGT, Wasp, Florian, Piazza, Jackaroo
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Not all diesels are correct (LHS) side - up to C190 inclusive are, and apparently recent MUA styles (RodeoBob has more knowledge on these).
Later diesel bell housings will probably only take reduction starters - not normal starters - but reductions from 2.3 & 2.6 Rodeos & Jackaroos (wrong-side starters) can be used. (My Wasp's reduction started still cranks with the battery at under 8 volts!)
All rear splines including small and large diameter fine splines can be obtained to suit the 1" Bellett universal joints.
The front spline is merely a case of matching the clutch plate, though some types may interfere with the flywheel ID depending on the combination.
Be wary of the later 17mmOD input shafts (the flywheel/spigot bearing - 6203? - whatever it is, just specify 16 or 17mm ID; OD = 40mm.)
My preferred "common" 5spd box is the early Gemini with 0.785 5th gear. (Otherwise post 1992 MU boxes - that's Mysterious Utility - not MUA!)
Then I fit the ZZR or DOHC 117/Piazza bell housing. (Bellett65 got my KB/Rodeo diesel bell years ago.)
I change the layshaft's needle bearing to the later ball bearing equivalent if the front cover suits.
It's easy to change the clutch lever & throwout pivot/mushroom to suit push hydraulic or mechanical, or pull cable type.
(Take care to get correct thrust block ID and width. Usually the throwout lever should sit approx perpendicular when the trust bearing engages the pressure plate.)
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| Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:18 am |
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JT191
Joined: Wed Sep 24, 2008 10:05 am
Posts: 543
Location: 12,450 miles away from the Big Warehouse in Melbourne
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I went to the dealership and poked through the old pickup parts catalog. The clerk explained right off that they have not been able to order in any diesel parts for many years.
For 81-86, the 2WD diesel was KBD31 and KDB31D for the short bed, and KBD36 and KBD36D for the long bed. All were C223-DES engine, described as 2200cc diesel. The only diagram devoted only to diesel transmissions shows the starter bulge on the bellhousing on the wrong side. There are two part numbers for the case half with the bellhousing. Both show to be discontinued and no longer available in the computer system.
I'll have to have someone check the availability of the Piazza XE bellhousing in Japan. they appear to be 30200 Yen in the book, but I doubt they are available either.
The wide range of final drive ratios listed seem to be from across the range (GT, sedan, etc.). They are showing only one final drive ratio for the PR91, 91W and 95: 3.727. Fourth gear is 1:1 in all the boxes. It seems like the ratio choice all comes down to acceleration and desired fifth gear cruising engine speed.
I had the clerk check the emergency brake boot part number. A Japanese auction showed the part number on the sticker. It is not a valid number in the computer system for this country. I guess no Pups had floor mounted e-brakes.
I'm going to be more than a little frustrated with a lot of this stuff, and should probably explain that aside from LUV pickups and one year of Japanese made Kadetts, we didn't get any cars until 1981. Parts for anything more than ten years old involves mailorder, because most yards crush cars after a couple months. Parts for anything 20-25 years old are nearly impossible. Parts for anything 40 years old requires the forethought to have bought a junker to strip for spare parts about 20 years before the car gets to the age of 40. And there aren't more than maybe five of these cars on the continent, in good shape or junker combined.
I'm going to need to figure out the spline pattern for the drive/propeller shaft before I do anything, and make sure to match it with whatever five speed goes in. There are no others to pull splined sleeves out of, so it is either make sure it fits or build something from scratch to make it fit.
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| Mon Dec 01, 2008 8:18 pm |
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antus
Site Admin
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:17 am
Posts: 208
Location: Adelaide
Car(s): Gemini TX Coupe G200W Delco EFI, Gemini TX sedan (SR20DET, track car), Dato 1200 Ute, Subaru Blitzen Wagon (4th gen)
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Or, you could try Australia. $AU is pretty weak at the moment, and those transmissions, while not common, are around. Try calling these guys: http://www.gemwreck.com.au/index2.html on the mobile number during Australian business hours. I dont know if they'll post international, but it might be worth seeing if you can arrange something. From the states I think it'll be 011 61 419021757 (eg country code 61, drop the leading 0 from the number).
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| Tue Dec 02, 2008 11:51 pm |
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Tuomas
Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:33 am
Posts: 14
Car(s): Bellett 4d sedan '66, KB, 3x Trooper
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antus wrote: Rodeobob on ozgemini.com wrote: Everything except the 4ZE1 had an MSG type gearbox. .
I have a Trooper with 4ZE1 engine and MSG trans according to the option plate. 
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| Fri Apr 24, 2009 7:42 pm |
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